Mental Vomits

Mir Nazim on Technology, Programming, Religion, Kashmir and much more

1. samaha 10.27.06 / 4am

   Actually, why don’t you tell us how the Hudood ordinance works? Care to explain how in some Muslim countries (Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) 4 male witnesses are needed to witness the rape and how a woman can be turned around and charged with adultery if she does not have those 4 witnesses?

   Now, what the Imam did I would place under freedom of speech. Just as I have said with the Muhammed cartoons, freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences.

   As Muslims, we need to start taking responsibility for our own actions. We need to stop our Imams from delivering crazy hutbas and we need to acknowledge when we are wrong.

   Reply
2. Mir Nazim 10.30.06 / 12am

   Samaha,
   U seem to be confused dude. When talking about witness, lot of scholars today agree that modern forensic findings can be taken as a witness, meaning 4 forensic findings. Or there may be one strong enough to be considered as equal to 4 witnesses, but 1 human witness can never be considered 4 witnesses.

   Now tell me what will your leagal system do if a women did not have a proof either forensic or other wise. I mean if raper is careful he may not leave any traces of the rape except his bodily fluids. So even with most sophisticated forensic technology you will never be able to prove a rape. It will be termed as adultery under any law.

   Even if it was adultery, do u think the man can go scot free. NO!
   70 lashes if it involved are unmarried. Stonning to death if they are married.

   You said
   As Muslims, we need to start taking responsibility for our own actions. We need to stop our Imams from delivering crazy hutbas and we need to acknowledge when we are wrong
   I agree, we need to stop Imams who are distorting the message of Islam for what ever alterior ends. But If Imam says what is from Quran and Sunnah. We have to encourage him.

   Tell was a single word this Imam said out of Quran and Sunnah.

   Just to appease some people, muslims are trying to deny the message of their Lord. I am against it. I call it hippocracy and nothing else. If we do not respect ourselves, how in the hell can we expect others to respect us.

   Reply
3. samaha 10.30.06 / 9am

   No dude, it seems that you are the one that is confused:

   The reason for the problems

   Zina Ordinance mixed Quranic punishments (hadd) with punishments under non-Quranic laws (tazir)
   Hadd punishments are different from tazir punishments
   Evidentiary requirements of hadd punishments are different
   i.e. hadd punishments require evidence of four eye witnesses
   tazir punishments can be based on the testimony of one person alone

   Zina Ordinance provided hadd punishments for some crimes which are not defined in the Quran
   E.g., Zina Ordinance provided a hadd punishment for rape (Zina bil jabr) even though there is punishment specified in the Quran for rape

   Judges under Zina Ordinance took a very broad view of what constituted a “confession”

   i.e. pregnancy of an unmarried women deemed to be a “confession” of fornication

   Fornication (zina) was defined as a non-bailable crime
   Since punishment for zina was theoretically death, zina fell with the special range of cases in which it was very difficult to get bail

   http://eteraz.wordpress.com/pakistan-womens-protection-bill-cheat-sheet/

   Of course my legal system would let the accused go if there was no forensic evidence, but since you are confused as to what constitutes a witness according to the Hudood ordinance, this argument is irrelevent. Oh, and also, I guess it would be irrelevant that my legal system doesn’t have punishments for adultery nor does it abuse victims even further by accusing them of such.

   What that Imam said – and I have a link to what he said at my blog was not from the Quran and Sunnah. Nowhere does the Quran or Sunnah say that the responsiblity of rape falls upon the woman. You should really be ashamed that you are even sticking up for this speech.

   Reply
4. ekawaaz 10.30.06 / 5pm

   Dear Nazim,

   First of Eid Mubarak…Hope you keeping well!!

   Regarding this post…

   First talk about Jack Straw comment,

   “When Jack Straw talked rubbish about hijab, whole media jumps to protect him by clarifyng what he actually meant. Who will come to this man’s rescue”

   Not only media come to protect him but many Muslims women if you had read British Tabloid. Like for example this Kashmirir women had written many article in support I am giving one link read and then talk about Jack Straw comment. What he said Women should not wear Hijab or Veil covering her face. She can wear hijab but try not to cover the face especially when you having a conversation.

   I know many Muslims women’s who they do support the comment of Jack Straw.

   read this article then let me know,
   “Why Muslim women should thank Straw
   Saira Khan
   The veil is not a religious obligation — it is a symbol of the subjugation by men of their wives and daughters MY PARENTS moved here from Kashmir in the 1960s. They brought with them their faith and their traditions. But they also arrived with an understanding that they were starting a new life in a country where Islam was not the main religion.

   My mother has always worn traditional Kashmiri clothes — the salwaar kameez, a long tunic worn over trousers, and the chador, which is like a pashmina worn round the neck or over the hair. But no one in my immediate family — here or in Kashmir — covers their face with a nikab (veil). As a child I wore the salwaar kameez at home — and at school a typical English school uniform. My parents never felt that the uniform compromised my faith; the important thing was that I would fit in so that I could take advantage of all the opportunities school offered. I was the hockey team captain and took part in county athletics: how could I have done all of this wearing salwaar kameez, let alone a veil? ”
   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2394934,00.html#post_comment

   Second for example you must have heard the case of Muslims teacher who got sacked because of Veil, as she uses to wear Veil in class room. Now she lost the case and her lawyer had issued the entire supporting document in which it clearly said she was wearing veil because she had received the fatwa from hard-line Islamic cleric Mufti Yusuf Sacha.

   http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=637

   Talking about the comment of cleric in Australia, its not twisted mate. Even Clerics agreed with remarks and back down to say sorry to women’s. Which shows he don’t have any respect for Women.

   Freedom of speech give you right to speak freely, so I don’t have any problem when cleric speak about anything as long as they and their community stand by it and by their statement. For this cleric even Australian community and Muslims organization refused to stand by him, which shows that he did disrespected the Women of every society.

   Reply
5. ekawaaz 10.30.06 / 5pm

   Regarding Saudi Arabia,

   Every one know its a closed society so I dont have much to say but visit few blogs of saudi arabia you will know what people think about law and government.

   I will give 2-3 links which normally visit have a look then say anything about Saudi Arabia.

   http://mystiquesa.blogspot.com/

   this is a blog of young Saudi Women..

   http://saudijeans.blogspot.com/

   Reply
6. Mir Nazim 10.30.06 / 8pm

   Yes you are right, I donnot know anything about hadood ordinance, since I am from India. But, My agrument for forensic proofs as witnesses still stands.

   If you have any problem with laws in your country, go and ask those who make those laws. Not me.

   You said:
   Nowhere does the Quran or Sunnah say that the responsiblity of rape falls upon the woman
   I agree. No where Quran says that women are responsible for rape. Neither did I say that nor did that Imam said that. here is what Quran says.

   “O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
   [Al-Qur’an 33:59]

   Hope you understand now that what that Imam meant and what I meant and what media is making out of it.

   If you want to deny Quran, fine do it, its your life and you have to answer on you behalf.
   I am not will to do so.

   Reply
7. Mir Nazim 10.30.06 / 8pm

   @ekawaaz
   Thanks for Eid Mubarak buddy. May Allah shower his grace and guidance on you and all of us.

   Now coming to the point.
   I have already that article. Now this is the problem. You guys are ready to accept some news articles written by muslims and some anonymous blogs as proofs that muslim women want to b liberated from so called subjugation. But you seem to over look thousands of muslim women demonstrating on the streets of UK.

   Coming to that teacher, i come to know from BBC and CNN news on TV that she won the case and was paid 1,100 pounds as compensation. she had refused to remove her veil in front of male staffers and Not students. Now tell whom should I trust and why, since both are western media.

   You said:
   Even Clerics agreed with remarks and back down to say sorry to women’s. Which shows he don’t have any respect for Women.
   Those clerics are nothing but hipocrates denying their scriptures. See the comment above this one. Read the verse and tell me where was this man wrong.

   There is a Sahih Hadith:

   Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: The hipocrates of later times will be far greater hipocrates than present in this time(Prophet’s time)

   These people fall in the category of those hipocrates. They are afraid of loosing their positions and status. I still maintain if a law in some country makes it difficult for muslims to be good practicing muslims, either Fight against it(if yuo can) or Leave that country.

   Moreover, these blogs and articles are exactly what I was refering to as media(hope you are knowledgeable enough to consider blogs as a powerful media). And moreover, there is no proof that these people are muslim or may be they are just pretending to be. Even there is no proof of your identity as well(please don’t get me wrong). I mean like, I am writing whatever I like with my original name and photo, even my address, emails and telephone numbers are available on my blog.

   Reply
8. samaha 10.30.06 / 9pm

   This is what the Imam said:

   …when it comes to adultery, it’s 90 per cent the women’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then it’s a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. (laughs).

   “Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years. [a veiled reference to the long sentences handed down to a gang of rapists who happened to be Lebanese, and who happened to use similar arguments to justify pack-raping young, non-muslim girls in Sydney - archie’s comment]

   That’s a problem Nazim – that this Imam could defend these boys with this poor excuse! If you guys have such a problem controling your urges – then it is you guys that need to stay locked in the house and we should put some chastity belts on you.

   “But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, scholar al-Rafihi says: ‘If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.’ Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it.”

   “If you take a kilo of meat, and you don’t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you’re crazy. Isn’t this true?

   “If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.

   “If the meat was covered, the cats wouldn’t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won’t get it.

   “If the meat was in the fridge and it (the cat) smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but it’s no use.

   “If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don’t happen.

   Now – what about those women who are not Muslim, who know nothing about Islam and Allah’s word, and let’s for one minute assume that your quote from the Quran doesn’t refer to a “particular” time in history and still mkes no mention of the veil. What about them? Do you believe that Muslim men should then be free to rape these women? Do you believe that it is the fault of these women that they got raped?

   Also, let me move on to forensics – PAKISTAN DOES NOT ALLOW FORENSIC EVIDENCE AS A WITNESS TO RAPE! Please read what I posted and please look into the subject before you just defend this shit. All I am asking you to do is to inform yourself in regards to the Hudood ordinance – it has been in the news repeatedly over the past few months. It is an injustice.

   Reply
9. Mir Nazim 10.31.06 / 12pm

   @samaha
   I still maintain what Imam said is in line with Quran and Sunnah. If a women is uncovered and gets raped most of the blame rests on her. But I do not see where Imam said that rapist can be let free. No way. Even if women was uncovered rapists has to punished by death.

   You talk about some Al-Rafihi. I do not know this man. If he says so you have to ask him for justification and not me. But I still considering his statement:

   If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.’ Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it.

   If you have even basic knowledge of english grammar can see it is a rhetoric statement, implying the importance of Hijab.

   You said: Now – what about those women who are not Muslim, who know nothing about Islam and Allah’s word, and let’s for one minute assume that your quote from the Quran doesn’t refer to a “particular” time in history and still mkes no mention of the veil. What about them? Do you believe that Muslim men should then be free to rape these women? Do you believe that it is the fault of these women that they got raped?
   First, Quran is not meant for a particular time period. It is meant for eternity and applicable in all times. And none muslim women are very well aware of Quran and Islam. All they need it to grab a copy and read it. they cannot claim they did not know.

   Moreover, where did Imam say that muslim men are free to rape uncovered women.

   As far as hadood ordinance is concerned, I do not want to know about it. If the majority of scholars in your country agree that hadood ordinance is not against Islam and Sunnah, I have nothing against it. So dont ask me. I did not make that law. Ask your law makers. You petition will be more effective if you ask some one from your country. Not someone from outside.

   Now I understand why Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blesing of allah be upon him, said that I saw more women in hell than men.

   Reply
10. I don’t know whether to cry to laugh or to pull out my hair « Samaha 10.31.06 / 10pm

    [...] When I calm down from reading this: @samaha I still maintain what Imam said is in line with Quran and Sunnah. If a women is uncovered and gets raped most of the blame rests on her. But I do not see where Imam said that rapist can be let free. No way. Even if women was uncovered rapists has to punished by death. [...]

    Reply
11. Abhsihek M 11.1.06 / 1pm

    Sir just for ur information…

    Most of the rapes in India are reported from Bihar (per 1000 ratio).And the bihar girls donot wear provocative clothes as much as delhi or mumbai.
    So could u explain this phenomenon as well???

    Reply
12. Abhsihek M 11.1.06 / 1pm

    I find it quite interesting that u sometimes talk about muslims as whole..like when u said muslims being traumatized by US forces,Israel etc.AGREED.GO AHEAD DO IT.But when it comes to condemning wrong doings by muslims..u excuse by saying that “huddo is in pakistan…it is none of my buisness…it isnot my country..thet r not my people..Ask them..etc etc.”

    IT SEEMS U FOLLOW THE OSTRICH POLICY.WHEN WRONG THINGS HAPPEN TO MUSLIMS..COMDEMN IT…BUT WHEN WROMG THINGS R DOME BY MUSLIMS..THEN BURY UR HEAD IN SAND… SAYING THAT IT IS NOT MY COUTRY SO NONE OF MY BUISNESS!!!

    Wat is more interesting is that u had said that”The destruction of Bamiyan buddhas need to be condemned by Buddhist not us.It is their duty”….It seems u believe to condemn attrocities on muslims by non muslims but not when muslims do it on non muslims!!!

    I condemn gujrat,Iraq..but wat stops u from condemning wrong doings of muslims??WRONG THINGS NEED TO BE CONDEMNED BY ALL IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGION!!!

    Reply
13. indian awakes 11.1.06 / 4pm

    Congrats Samaha for consistently trying to enlighten Mir Nazim. I really wish we have more broad minded true and communally secular Muslims like you in India. As for Mir Nazim, please go and stay in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. I am willing to pay for your relocation expenses.

    Reply
14. Mir Nazim 11.1.06 / 7pm

    @ahishek
    Hijab does not mean just covering the body. It includes behaviour, society, and has a much broader sense. Being uncovered is just one such reason, but there can be plenty of others. Please enlighten me about what other reasons are since I am not aware about the conditions prevailing there.

    You said: But when it comes to condemning wrong doings by muslims..u excuse by saying that “huddo is in pakistan…it is none of my buisness…it isnot my country..thet r not my people..Ask them..etc etc.”
    I never said they are not my people, please read again. I said I was not aware of the full facts of that ordinance, But if majority scholars accept that Hadood ordinance is in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. I have no problem in accepting it. But is it goes agaist Quran and Sunnah I do not accept it.

    You said Wat is more interesting is that u had said that”The destruction of Bamiyan buddhas need to be condemned by Buddhist not us.It is their duty”….It seems u believe to condemn attrocities on muslims by non muslims but not when muslims do it on non muslims!!!
    I never said only budthist should condemn it. If you read my comments properly, I condemned. What I said was:

    Protesting to destruction of budha is the duty of Budhists. Did you protest for those cartoons. http://mirnazim.wordpress.com/2006/10/04/i-wonder-why/#comment-117

    I condemn all the wrong things done by a muslim. I condemn all muslims who drink alcohol, I condemn all muslims who are rapists. And believe in strictest possible punishment for them.

    @India Awakens
    Thanks dude, but instead of just leaving this country, I prefer to fight my rights. This is my country, why should I leave it.

    PS: Hey abhishek please do not devaite from topics. Off topic comments will be deleted.

    Reply
15. Abhsihek M 11.1.06 / 8pm

    Ur comment is “destruction of budha is the DUTY of Budhists”Isnot it the duty of muslims as well to protest against wrong.I mean since u consider ur religion to be the best..then all muslims sud have condemned it(And u sud not ask us why didnot we condemn cartoons after all u consider us as lesser educated beings as we donot belong to the best religion.HA HA HA)

    Reply
16. Abhsihek M 11.1.06 / 8pm

    Bhaijaan yeh to aap hume samjhahe ki Bihar mein India ke sanse jyada rape kyu hote hai???

    Reply
17. Abhsihek M 11.1.06 / 8pm

    Bhaijaan yeh to aap hume samjhahe ki Bihar mein India ke sabse jyada rape kyu hote hai???If ur idea that rape is due to provocative clothes.Give me reason why rape incident is highest in Bihar.You said that it also depends on behaviour etc etc..
    OK>Tell me about something about the behaviour of women of Bihar which makes them so vunerable to rape???After all u r an Indian..must be knowing about Bihar…tell us…

    Reply
18. Mir Nazim 11.1.06 / 8pm

    @abhishek
    Ur comment is “destruction of budha is the DUTY of Budhists”Isnot it the duty of muslims as well to protest against wrong.I mean since u consider ur religion to be the best..then all muslims sud have condemned it(And u sud not ask us why didnot we condemn cartoons after all u consider us as lesser educated beings as we donot belong to the best religion.HA HA HA)
    You seem to have problem in understanding simple english. Where did I say you are less educated. Large number of Muslims condemned it. You do not want to see it. thats your problem.

    Bhaijaan yeh to aap hume samjhahe ki Bihar mein India ke sabse jyada rape kyu hote hai???If ur idea that rape is due to` provocative clothes.Give me reason why rape incident is highest in Bihar.You said that it also depends on behaviour etc etc..
    OK>Tell me about something about the behaviour of women of Bihar which makes them so vunerable to rape???After all u r an Indian..must be knowing about Bihar…tell us…
    As I told you that i am not aware of the social structure of Bihar. So I cannot comment on this. Moreover it is not only behaviour of women, behavoir, mindset, social structure, and social practices among men as well as women can cause rape.

    I am sorry dude, I have never been to Bihar, neither had an opportunity to discuss the fact. Go on enlighten me. May be I may change my opinion.

    PS: No Off Topic Comments, Please

    Reply
19. Abhsihek M 11.1.06 / 8pm

    Bihar has a male dominated,caste driven state much more than other states.Bihar women dress quite modestly still it is the male dominating urge that drives them to rape.RAPE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DRESSING.If it had…. then the most numbrer of rapes would have been reported from Delhi Mumbai not India villages.

    Reply
20. ekawaaz 11.2.06 / 6am

    Dear Nazim..

    “Coming to that teacher, i come to know from BBC and CNN news on TV that she won the case and was paid 1,100 pounds as compensation. she had refused to remove her veil in front of male staffers and Not students. Now tell whom should I trust and why, since both are western media.”

    You got wrong idea about teacher winning case. I don’t know where you had read it on BBC. She has lost her claim of religious discrimination at a tribunal. 1100 pound what she has received is not because she won the case but tribunal given her as a victim compensation.

    You can read the whole case here on bbc…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6066726.stm

    About Blogs

    “Moreover, these blogs and articles are exactly what I was refering to as media(hope you are knowledgeable enough to consider blogs as a powerful media). And moreover, there is no proof that these people are muslim or may be they are just pretending to be. Even there is no proof of your identity as well”

    blogs
    http://mystiquesa.blogspot.com/

    She got full profile there with email address, she is Muslim Girl you can find her interview I guess on youtube as she been highlighted in BBC and Aljazera too, not only just her many other lady bloggers.

    http://saudijeans.blogspot.com/

    This guy got pic, email and all the other things please go and have a look.

    When ever I leave comment you always have my email id, I don’t share my email id on my blog because of spam. You share you personal details that are cool, but this doesn’t mean every one should be sharing. If you know Bloggers right then you should also know that we got right to blog legally anonymously.

    I believe true religion is not a narrow canon. It is not external adherence. It is faith in God and living in the presence of God. For me religion is simply a personal matter. I might be Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Christians anyone does that matter nope at least not for me. I still believe that religion should be individual personal matter, no politics no shouting. When we try to bring religion in every way of our life and in society, then of course we will have problem. So this is the one reason I don’t declare what religion I belong. I am happy to be known a Human being. I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as mine. Our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian. Jewish should be Jews….

    Reply
21. Qayum hamid changal 11.2.06 / 8pm

    wishing u all by this islamic way of greeting..Aslamualykum.
    MR Abishek, i think u are least exposed to the truth that must be understood.friend,if there are two twins on the bus stop,one is completly covered only face and hands exposed and the other is wearing the mini skirt,which one of the two has the most chances to get harrased?
    friend,hope u understand!

    Reply
22. Mir Nazim 11.3.06 / 12am

    @abishek
    Thanks for this piece of info. Yes the reasons you just sighted can also lead to crimes against women. Women may under constant threat and fear in bihar. But I do not accept your thinking “RAPE HAS NOTHING TO WITH DRESSING”. According to Islam modesty is on part of being safe from sexual crimes. There are numerous laws for men that can be helpful in stopping the abuse on women. But I cannot change you mind. All I can say is with time you will understand. Inshallah.

    @Qayum
    Qayoom Bhai,
    The example you just sighted is not good for these people, since they say dressing has nothing to do with sexual harassment. Anyways, thanks for these words of wisdom.

    Reply
23. Natalia Antonova 11.3.06 / 4am

    “My question, Which is the country which has the lowest number of rape cases reported as well as unreported. Saudi Arabia. No need to say anything more.”

    Rape is underreported in conservative societies because of the stigma attached to the victim. No need to say anything more.

    “What is the actual meaning is that uncovered women are inviting rape.”

    No one “invites” rape. The very definition of rape precludes “invitation.”

    Statistically, most women are raped by someone they know, not by scary boogeymen hiding in dark alleys looking out for an “uncovered” woman to snatch.

    Rape is an act of violence primarily motivated by the desire to dominate and humiliate.

    Islam is not the problem. Ynder-informed, agenda-driven musings on the subject of rape and the perpetuation of sexist stereotypes in regards to women in general and rape victims in particular are the problem.

    Inform yourself before you go out “rescuing” men that a) are too dumb to lead their communities and/or b) are too blind to the real issues surrounding violence and gender to even beging commenting on them.

    Reply
24. diana 11.3.06 / 10pm

    Nazim, what is the first duty of a muslim as fixed by the Quran? For christians, it is to give glory to God in everything whether it be eating or drinking. I am curious to know the emotion behind this post. This conversation has been interesting and I agree with some of your commentors, I also agree that dressing modestly is nice, but rape is the sin of the man and he cannot be excused for it even if the woman he raped was walking naked on the street. God has given each one a prayer line, and calling to him can help us overcome temptation- and while the girl *may* be responsible for weakening a man’s thoughts, the man is FULLY responsible for his own actions. That is like saying, “why did you walk past me when I was angry and had a gun in my hand? I wanted to kill somebody, and you should not have crossed my path”. ANY person can be an object of murder, rape, or any other crime. Does the Quran tell you the story of David and Bathsheba? The Bible does. David seduced a married woman because he was attracted to her when he saw her bathing. And God held HIM and HIM ALONE, guilty of that sin.
    God sees the heart and every heart will be judged according to God’s righteous judgement… I believe women should dress modestly to avoid making men have lustful thoughts in their heart, but if they act upon those lustful thoughts the woman CANNOT be blamed. All the blame lies on the godlessness of the men who commit this crime.

    Nazim I want to add, I am not an expert on the Quran, but from what I have read and understood does not convince me in any way of the “Spirit” of God leading the law and practices. My thinking is completely saturated with what Jesus taught, and I think there is no question that the highest commandment is to love God with all our hearts and minds and souls. So if we love God with that intensity, the clear inference is that we will hate godlessness with the same intensity. Any thoughts?

    PS – Natalia’s comment is pretty logical…

    Reply
25. Mir Nazim 11.4.06 / 12pm

    @Natalie
    Dear sister, Inviting here is not to be taken in literal sense, it is a rhetoric use of the word. Go through Diana’s comment to understand what inviting means here.

    My dear sister, I think you should refer to CIA’s World Fact Book for the number of rape cases(reported as well as unreported) around the world. I hope you trust CIA researches.

    @Diana
    JazakAllah! Sister, I congratulate you. What ever you say is correct. Please go though my comment once again. You will find that I have categorically mentioned, it does not matter whether a raped women was covered or uncovered, the punishment for rapist under Islamic Law is DEATH BY STONING PUBLICLY.
    But I congratulate you for you have wisely agreed that immodest dressing is also major cause of rapes in the world.

    AS far as your question about what is first duty of muslim according to Quran. It is “Taqwah” meaning “God Consciousness”. It is a very deep word, Scholars have written volumes just explaining this word. So not possible to explain it all here.

    Reply
26. Abhsihek M 11.4.06 / 4pm

    Mir,
    It is a pity that u r one of the brain washed guys who wouldnot subscribe to logical arguements.In India

    1.Most of the rapes r reported from Bihar..a state where girls wear modest dress.

    2.In India most of the rape cases r reported from villages not cities.Again in villages girls r more modest than city girls in dress selection.

    Surely u have very well bypassed the real issue by saying it is due to other factors.If OTHER FACTORS r the real reason then those other factors must be more important as most of India’s rape r due to those other factors.

    Reply
27. Abhsihek M 11.4.06 / 5pm

    On a lighter note…the possibility of extreme sexualy active nature of muslims cannot be ruled out as a factor due to which mohammad(PBUH) advised the veil to the women.

    Bcos such a concept doesnot exists much among hindus or any other religion as much as Islam.May be non muslims had much self control.

    PS-I based my sexual activeness theory on the
    1.The high birth rate in muslim community.
    2.68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from muslim community in Sweden.If this article/report is true n not a mis information then it is quite regreatable n alarming.

    http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html

    Reply
28. abhi-sheikh 11.4.06 / 7pm

    abhsihek

    when i read your name, it sounded like this 2 me: abhi-sheikh. wid malice towards one n all, sheikh in kashmiri means a sweeper

    i shouldn’t be comparing ur name wid wt it means in kashmiri bt i wil do dt whn u stop comparing ur bihar thoery n sweden rape rates. i could talk abt the untouchables in india n all that junk dt happens in india bt i wont, bcoz dis post is nt about that and above all it is beynd ur comprehension.

    since when did u bcme an expert on hijab n hudood ordinance? Islam is a systme of life, a way of living n try as hard as u wud (based on ur resources) u wont win ever.

    still do u knw dt in hinduism ur godes rape each othr. ur sexual preferences r well laid out in ajanta cavs. u worship kamasutra, lingam n wt not. phew!

    Reply
29. Mir Nazim 11.5.06 / 12am

    @abhishek
    Muslims are no special human beings with super strengths powers. It is all about human nature. Hijab(face covering is not compulsory according to Quran and Sunnah) is not just to avoid rape, but to save people from, fornication and adultery(which are an equal sin) as well. In western society(and fast westernizing Eastern societies) it is common to have quite a large number of sexual encounters before marriage.

    I have did not say it is only due immodesty or only due to other factor. Immodesty is on of the may factors that you are unwilling to accept. Other factors quoted are as well very important. There are solutions to those in Islam as well. May be we can discuss it sometime.

    As far as your report from Sweden is concerned, If it is true, it is a really regretable fact for muslims. This is just about practising muslims and non practising muslims. I stand for the strictest punishment for these bastard who are doing such deeds. I say if they are muslims punish them harder.

    @abhi-sheikh
    You said:wid malice towards one n all, sheikh in kashmiri means a sweeper
    My dear brother you are wrong. Sheikh is not a Kashmiri word. It is arabic meaning teacher, leader, knowledgebale and respectable. It was the word given to sweeper community by Shah Zainulabideen, so that people will not look down upon them.

    Moreover, this is not about winnig o loosing. It is about finding the truth. Which we shall. Inshallah.

    And please stop abusing other religions, since it is against the Quran and the way of Prothet.

    Next time I am gonna delete your comments if they cotain any such thing.

    PS: I appologize on his behalf to all Hindu community.

    Reply
30. Ekawaaz 11.5.06 / 1am

    Dear Nazim,

    Hope you keeping well, I want to ask one question mate why is my comment is not addressed, well first why it is still under consideration? Did I said some thing objectional for your blog or some thing?

    Reply
31. Ekawaaz 11.5.06 / 1am

    It might be possible that my last comment is in Spam filter as it was long response…

    Reply
32. Mir Nazim 11.5.06 / 11am

    Yes may be it is in spam filter, if I have not deleted it accidently, expect my response by today midnight, as I may not be able to access internet during rest of the day.

    Reply
33. Natalia Antonova 11.6.06 / 8am

    Yes, because “CIA research” is not political or anything.

    Fight the real enemy.

    I am disgusted my anyone who would suggest that my lovely, decidedly uncovered head is an “invitation” in any sense of the word.

    This is barbarism at its most obvious.

    Reply
34. qayum hamid 11.6.06 / 7pm

    west has left the women in the vicinity of immoral implementations.women with such provocative dresses are mere toys in and enjoying stuff.on the other hand,HIJAB is the compleet dress code and one has to accept it.

    Reply
35. Abhishek M 11.7.06 / 3pm

    Mir Nazim,
    U want to hide behind the pratising n non practising mulims theory.But trust me..the world will always determine a religion by the behaviour of its followers not its books.It is in the same maner as A SCHOOL IS DETERMINED BY ITS STUDENTS BEHAVIOUR NOT BY THE BOOK CONTENT OR SYLABUS.

    Reply
36. Abhishek M 11.7.06 / 3pm

    Regarding rape..U havenot been able to explain your theory in Indian context of Bihar n indian villages..so as long as u canot explain it in India context,it will be dificult to accept ur theory.

    Reply
37. Mir Nazim 11.30.06 / 12am

    @all
    There is nothing to hide, Dude.

    For the sake of argument, I agree that Islam is the worst religion with no respect for human life, degradation of women, humiliation for non muslims and all other other so-called problems which you(and like minded) think Islam has.
    May I humbly ask,

    Why is Islam the fasted growing religion in the world with:
    1. Largest growth in US, Canada and Europe, keeping in mind Islam’s image in west
    2. Among people reverting to Islam, why are 65% women, if Islam degrades women so much.

    Are all of them fools.

    Please answer in brief???

    Reply
38. Abhishek M 11.30.06 / 5pm

    NAZIM ASKED-Why is Islam the fasted growing religion in the world?

    With due respect to Islam,a lot of people say that it is the fastest growing religion in the world specially in Europe.This statement might be true.But it can be attributed to the fact that most of the christain countries r secular.So apostasy is acceptable.However in many of the muslim countries apostasy is punishable by death.Will Islam grow as fast in UK/US as it is growing now if the punishment for apostasy is death?The reason for Islam’s high growth in europe is freedom of religion.I donot mind if Islam is growing the fastest but if Islamic countries give even playing field to all religions only then it wud be the real indicator and test of the which religion is growing the fastest…..

    Largest growth in CAnada?

    For your kind information fastest growing religion of Canada is Buddhism not Islam.

    http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=66,34,0,0,1,0

    It is also the fastest growing in Aus.

    Reply
39. Mir Nazim 11.30.06 / 11pm

    @abhishek
    Dude, you are avoiding the real point. Even if the law permits and allows people to change their religion, why would a religion with so many critical flaws(so called) would be spreading like a wild fire. The point is not whether the law permits or not, but the point is the flaws that Islam has and such bad publicity that Islam is getting in last half decade.

    About budhism in west, the link provided by you is from a budhism site and not some unbiased third party. Moreover it itself says:

    This rise of Buddhists is attributed to increasing numbers of new immigrants from Buddhist countries, mostly Sri Lanka, Vietnam, India, China, and Myanmar. (Para 5)

    Dude, refer to CIA World Fact Book 2002(or may be 2003) to the section “world religions”. I am not quoting from Muslim sources but from Western sources. So think twice before pulling a fast one on me.

    I say once again. Get you fact right, DUDE!

    Reply
40. William 1.2.07 / 11am

    I agree with you that we in the west are a bit one sided and hypocritical when it comes to discussing Islamic statements/views/beliefs. I think that it’s mainly to do with culture rather than religion.
    However, I would challenge you to prove that the Bible does indeed say that “women are the weapons used by Satan to corrupt men”.

    Reply
41. Mir Nazim 1.10.07 / 1pm

    @William
    However, I would challenge you to prove that the Bible does indeed say that “women are the weapons used by Satan to corrupt men”.

    I am saying what a local Catholic Bible Thumper told me when I asked him why do not christian preist marry. He produced some verses from Bible which I do not remember right now.

    Moreover I know(and you know),
    Bible singles out Eve to be responsible for eating the forbiden fruit. While Quran holds both responsible. to this day christianity holds women responsible for that.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Reply
42. diana 1.10.07 / 2pm

    Sorry you’re a bit wrong on that, it is always written through Adam came the curse/one man transgressed and through Jesus Christ came the gift, and the gift is not like the trespass.

    The Bible says the woman was deceived FIRST, which is true, she was deceived and then after her Adam also ate. And as for why priests dont marry, you will not find the answer in the Bible, because it is not a biblical reason. Paul the apostle did not marry, but Peter was married. The catholic church says it is built on Peter, then how can it say marriage is forbidden for priests when Peter himself was married?

    The Bible is the basis for any christian authority so if you find in the Bible anything that says women are inferior to men or specifically used by Satan to corrupt men, let me know. You can read the Bible online at http://www.biblegateway.com if you like cheers.

    Even if you are not reading the Bible to find arguments, you can search “John 1″ in the box on that website and read on, maybe you will find what I found, the truth in the Bible and in Jesus Christ…

    Diana

    Reply
43. Mir Nazim 1.11.07 / 12pm

    @diana
    Thanks for correcting me. let me check and find again. Will surely get back to you.

    Reply
44. diana 1.12.07 / 12pm

    It’s cool, good luck. If you need any help finding anything in the Bible just give me a shout okay? And the Biblegateway website is also great for searching.

    Diana

    Reply
45. THE ONE 3.4.07 / 7pm

    ON THING IS FOR SURE IF THE CAT WILL EAT THE MEAT THEN THE MOSLEM MEN ARE DEFENITLY ARE ANIMALS.

    Reply
46. THE ONE 3.4.07 / 7pm

    LISTEN TO ME NAZIM SCUMBAG..I REALLY DONT KNOW IF ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION OR NOT BUT ONE THING IS FOR SURE PRETTY SOON WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING I THINK ISLAM IS GOING TO HAVE THE LEAST NUMBER OF DISCIPLES BECAUSE OF WAR..CAN YOU PROOVE ME WRONG..?

    Reply
47. Mir Nazim 3.5.07 / 10am

    @THE One
    Only time will tell. Lets wait and watch.
    And if Muslims are animals, why is such a rate of rape so high in US/Europe.

    Reply
48. Shazia 3.5.07 / 12pm

    First of all..I highly doubt that Osama and his friends are muslims. I think someone is just using Islam as a front and a reason for terrorism. I don’t think it’s them. – if they were true muslims, they would know the meaning of Islam and therefore wouldn’t do what they are doing.

    And, outward appearance shouldn’t matter..it is what you are inside that matters.
    Also, there is also a lot of rape in Afghanistan and Pakistan etc..this could be due to the strict separation of the sexes and therefore a suppressed feeling of lust has to arise. It is all the same . ok i don’t klnow where i’m getting at,

    Reply
49. Rahul Dewan 10.23.07 / 7pm

    Mir,

    It really saddens me (and somewhere inside me deep resentment and anger rises too) to hear such defence of a sick statement made by a radical bigot. Also, some of your arguments on why women are adopting Islam, etc. are pretty weak. The argument about Saudi Arabian law of stoning is more saddening than anything else in your defence – this law (among many others) should be hauled up under Human Rights anyway; unfortunately, they continue live in the medieval ages, when burning prophets, philosophers and scientists was acceptable in that part of the world.

    Unfortunately, Islam (specifically the Wahabi sect arising out the very regions you are raising an example of) has seen very little reform over the ages, for several reasons, and for this reason has, unfortunately, has fed the ignorance of its followers provoking rampant terrorism, originating from the centres of such theology and orthodoxy, who have often misinterpreted the Quran and Muhammad’s spiritual message. They have abused the prophet and his message, and attributed infallibility to him, which even he did not claim.

    I welcome you in a debate on exploring and questioning everything that you and I believe.

    Let’s use technology and setup an interface where we can engage in a meaningful dialogue and exchange of ideas…and interface, which allows us to respond point by point and thus enabling us to keep focussed, as opposed to get lost in a mesh of arguments. You and I can be the sole moderators of the same, while more people can keep having discussions and points on what we talk about on the sidelines. I am not sure if a Wiki is suitable or some Question/Answer module in Drupal or something else. Please advise.

    Let me know your interest in exploring our religions, theology, philosophy and spirituality. I am sure both you and I, and the many many hundreds and thousands of people (I’m hoping) who will read this dialogue will get enriched and profoundly touched by this dialogue.

    In ancient India, seers and prophets (I know you believe that India never had prophets; we’ll address this issue in our dialogue as well) used to have such dialogues, and were some of the best and most profound philosophical dialogues ever recorded in human history. Gautam Buddha enrolled many seers in his philosophy during his travels around the country.

    I am not claiming that you and I are capable of such intense and profound dialogues, yet I think two thinking technology entrepreneurs with a philosophical/ spiritual/ theological/ religious background can attempt this feat.

    Looking forward.

    Love,
    Rahul Dewan
    danceofshiva@gmail.com

    Reply
50. Mir Nazim 10.28.07 / 2pm

    @Brother Rahul

    First, I apologize for delyed response. Please find my responses inline. Your question are in bold italics My responses follow them.

    It really saddens me (and somewhere inside me deep resentment and anger rises too) to hear such defence of a sick statement made by a radical bigot.

    Could you please explain us why this anger arises. Where is this anger gone when people in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of world are butchered, women raped and much more.

    Also, some of your arguments on why women are adopting Islam, etc. are pretty weak.

    Did I give any arguments, NO. I DID NOT. I just asked a question. Even if I gave weak arguments, can you give me correct arguments/reasons.

    The argument about Saudi Arabian law of stoning is more saddening than anything else in your defence

    Alright. I ask you a question, if your sister, your mother, your wife is raped. What punishment would you give the rapist.

    this law (among many others) should be hauled up under Human Rights anyway;

    Where does this Human Right thingy go when we are being butchered all along the world. Why these double standards.

    unfortunately, they continue live in the medieval ages, when burning prophets, philosophers and scientists was acceptable in that part of the world.

    Unfortunately, we are still being butchered all along the surface of the earth. CAn you give me one single instance when a scientist was burned or killed in Muslim world for his science. Do I need to give examples of this act in other religions?

    Unfortunately, Islam (specifically the Wahabi sect arising out the very regions you are raising an example of) has seen very little reform over the ages,

    Are you sure! I think you need a lesson in history, the very foundations of reforms, science, art, etc. you are talking about come from those foolish, barbarians and terrorists.

    Moreover, can you tell me what reforms has other parts of world seen?

    unfortunately, has fed the ignorance of its followers provoking rampant terrorism, originating from the centres of such theology and orthodoxy, who have often misinterpreted the Quran and Muhammad’s spiritual message. They have abused the prophet and his message, and attributed infallibility to him, which even he did not claim.

    I am not here to support terrorism or the terrorists. But I ask you a question. If your land is captured, your young are butchered, your mothers and sisters raped in front of your eyes, what would you do.

    I welcome you in a debate on exploring and questioning everything that you and I believe.

    Sure, anytime. I am ready!

    Let’s use technology and setup an interface where we can engage in a meaningful dialogue and exchange of ideas…and interface, which allows us to respond point by point and thus enabling us to keep focussed, as opposed to get lost in a mesh of arguments. You and I can be the sole moderators of the same, while more people can keep having discussions and points on what we talk about on the sidelines. I am not sure if a Wiki is suitable or some Question/Answer module in Drupal or something else. Please advise.

    I am with you, you can setup an mailing list or what ever, I will be more than willing to participate. Let’s do it objective and let people form their opinions.

    Let me know your interest in exploring our religions, theology, philosophy and spirituality. I am sure both you and I, and the many many hundreds and thousands of people (I’m hoping) who will read this dialogue will get enriched and profoundly touched by this dialogue.

    I am a Muslim. And true Muslim belief is as follows.

    1. Belief in Oneness of Allah.
    2. Allah is not begotten nor he begets.
    3. Allah has no partners or peers, Neither Allah takes one.
    4. Allah has sent Messengers on earth in every time and on every nation.
    5. Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him, is the LAST AND FINAL Messenger of Allah, sent as the mercy to whole of human kind.
    6. Allah revealed LAST AND FINAL Message, Testament to Prophet Muhammad which is the Quran, the Furqan(Furqan means the criteria to judge between right and wrong).
    7. We will die and we will be raised up again to give the account of our deeds.
    PERIOD

    (I know you believe that India never had prophets; we’ll address this issue in our dialogue as well)

    How do you Know that? Did I say that? Did I ever make statement that even remotely resembles this? These pre-assumptions are cause of whole misunderstanding about Islam.

    In ancient India, seers and prophets used to have such dialogues, and were some of the best and most profound philosophical dialogues ever recorded in human history. Gautam Buddha enrolled many seers in his philosophy during his travels around the country.

    Perfect. This is the message of Quran. Quran says there has not been a single nation or time in which a a Prophet or a Messenger of Allah was not present among people to warn them about the right and wrong. Quran mentions 25 prophets by name in Quran but also makes it clear that Allah sent 124,000(One Hundred & Twenty Four Thousand) prophets to people of earth to different nations and in different times.

    I don’t have any doubt that Gautam Budha might have been a messenger of Allah, but since his name is not mentioned in Quran, I will say he MIGHT have been a prophet or he MIGHT NOT have been. Means We are not sure.

    I am not claiming that you and I are capable of such intense and profound dialogues, yet

    Neither am I claiming so. Did I ever?

    I think two thinking technology entrepreneurs with a philosophical/ spiritual/ theological/ religious background can attempt this feat.

    Yes sure we can. As a Muslim, Allah commands me to have open dialogs in a manner that is most beautiful and righteous.

    Looking forward.

    Me too

    Reply
51. Mir Nazim 10.28.07 / 2pm

    Rahul

    I read your blog Dancing Shiva. I liked the post about gifting a Muslim lady and his son, against all odds. This shows that we still have some hope.

    Moreover, looks like you have lots of confusions about Muslim terminology regarding GOD Vs Allah, Prophets among other things. Which I see is due to the bad translations etc.

    Let’s sit sometime and talk and discuss. But meeting in person is something which I will prefer than taking on a mailing list. I think I can clear some of your doubts.

    I will be comming to OSSCamp Delhi in December. let met up.

    Reply
52. Rahul Dewan 11.3.07 / 5am

    Mir,

    Excellent! I’ll be happy to meet in person and discuss this further. Yet, I would love to have a dialogue in some form online, as I do believe that the dialogue could expand and include more than two insignificant individuals arguing it out on this personal blog. It could, for instance, become a an expression enabling spiritual evolution for not only you and I, but for hundreds and thousands of people who may read this dialogue. We are at a point in time, where either we people can spiritually evolve, or we would probably end up killing ourselves – all of us – not people of any particular race, religion, nationality – but all of us – either through acts of war on each other, or through acts of war on our environment and Mother Earth, which according to the Gaia theory, will strike back! This, by the way, may not be inconsistent, with doomsday predictions in Islam and Christianity (to my limited knowledge) .

    So, yes, let’s talk in person, but talk online as well.

    Now for your arguments above. you have raised the following few important points:

    A. Where is this anger gone when people in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and other parts of world are butchered, women raped and much more.

    Ans: The anger rises here as well! Whether that is Kashmir, or anywhere else, there is anger, if the killing and brutality is unjust. Yet, in all of the cases you mention the war may not be unjust, as per the standards of civil society in modern times.

    The war in Afganisatan for instance, by USA, to my mind is completely just and must be! The Taliban was beating women around because their ankles were uncovered; they were blowing away statues of the brilliant past of the Buddha; they made mockery of children by handing them guns, and feeding the world opium. The day I saw videos of Afgani women being beaten by the Talibani men, I was raging with anger inside me. This anger once again came up, when I saw the Bamiyan Buddhas being blown up. This is fanaticism, and madness!

    The was in Iraq is complete crap and utter shamelessness from a hegemonic power, and all this for securing oil. I am completely completely completely against the USA on this, and a complete fan of

    I know you have mentioned Kashmir and the atrocities by Indian security forces several times in your blog. No defence for this. Yet, security forces in all conflict zones in India, often due to circumstantial or undesirable or unintentional or sometimes even purposefully, are known to perpetrate violence against the people of the regions they are present in. This is the same case with India’s North-East, and was the case in Punjab.

    This is not only true of India, but all control-based policing around the world – Pakistan, Iraq (Kurds!), Turkey, Indonesia, Russia, China – all included.

    The issue is that you keep raising the bogie of “…we are getting butchered around the world”. Yet, have you looked into why Islam is becoming the center of conflict in each and every country it has significant presence in? Ever peered inside your own religious practices, and madrassas – on what fanaticism and exclusivity of God is being taught to children that they get brought up on, resulting in such seething anger and lack of love? Let’s talk about this, let’s debate, let’s interview, let’s QUESTION OUR RELIGION (I believe, God gave us intelligence to Question, and not follow with subservience! In my opinion, this is mockery of God!)

    B. If your land is captured, your young are butchered, your mothers and sisters raped in front of your eyes, what would you do.

    Ans: I suppose you are referring to Kashmir or Palestine. Unfortunately, I do not know enough about Palestine and Israel, in case you are referring to that. In case you are referring to Kashmir, then land captured is by someone else, not by India.

    Yet, I believe that, not only for Kashmir, but for all states, and all countries in the world, we must move towards autonomy at the local level, and towards a ONE-WORLD GOVERNMENT at a global level.

    Both these are extremely desirable goals to strive for, and more positive ways of conflict resolution, rather than waging war, and raising terrorists.

    India was captured land too at one point in time! We freed ourselves not by fury of Bhagat Singh (yet remember he dropped a harmless bomb and got himself arrested, simply because he wanted to send a more powerful message of fearlessness), but because of the unrelenting love of Ahimsa (non-violence) of Mahatma Gandhi.

    Rapes and murders happen around the world, in all countries. Your rhetoric is merely that – rhetoric. Look deeply (and with an open mind) and I believe, you may find it so! People do not pick up arms and start waging war. There has to be a human civil law which protects its citizens.

    Taking this a step further, it may be worth our while, to understand why do people murder and rape. It may be worthwhile to evolve our society to such a level where this stops completely. That would be a more worthwhile goal to pursue.

    C. Can you give me one single instance when a scientist was burned or killed in Muslim world for his science. Do I need to give examples of this act in other religions?

    I would not like to be seen here as jibing. I am simply stating facts. I hope you see the same in this light. Scientists, Visonaries, Philosophers, Prophets, have been burnt, mutilated, and banished, all throughout the history of the western-asian region, specifically in Islamic dominated or semitic religion dominated regions, which have primarily been raised on superiority of their own religion and some kind of exclusivity of their religion (on the contrary core Vedantic philosophy of Hinduism keeps saying ‘There is ONE GOD; Ways to HIM/HER are many’; this is the primary reason Hinduism incorporates people, religions and practices of all kind of people and their philosophies; India is what it is, because of its Hindu mindset, which has in the past in some ways extended to the entire subcontinent region). Some examples:
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallaj
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1‘u’ll%C3%A1h
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates (non-Semitic)
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism (Sufi thought in general)

    D. I think you need a lesson in history, the very foundations of reforms, science, art, etc. you are talking about come from those foolish, barbarians and terrorists.

    Ans: Well, I think there is much room for factual disagreement here. The first known, and the largest philosophical thought has been documented in the Vedas (ofcourse they probably did not belong to India as we know it today; maybe let me say Indian thought), the first most-organised cities were formed in civilisations which were not in the Saudi Arabian region (Islam was not born then); Mohenjodaro, Harrappa, Aztecs, Egyptian, Incas – these pre-date Islam and Islamic Saudi Arabia by a few thousand years.

    Once again, I reiterate, my objective is not to play a game of superiority. It is simply to state facts, to bring about an openness to accept ‘how things are’ as opposed to ‘how they are meant to be in ideal religious theology’.

    In order to change ‘how things are’ we all must evolve together, and re-define our relationship with God, as we define and theorise about Her.

    Towards this, a healthy questioning dialogue is the most important step you and I can take. And once again, I insist it must go online.

    Love,
    Rahul
    –
    http://srijanfoundation.wordpress.com/

    Reply
53. Questioning Islamic thought « Srijan Foundation 11.3.07 / 5am

    [...] http://mirnazim.wordpress.com/2006/10/27/uncovered-women-are-same-as-uncovered-meat/ [...]

    Reply
54. Mir Nazim 11.3.07 / 12pm

    Hello Rahul

    Good to hear from your side again. Sure we will continue our discussion here also. But I would love to meet in person also.

    Coming to our discussion. Could you please do me a favor. Let’s not mix things up. Lets take up the issues one by one. Forget past communication and start a fresh.

    Let’s take up things one by one. Tell me what is the thing that you find most bad about Islam, But only one things at a time. Lets discuss that first. Alright.

    Post one question and we will discuss that first. OK

    Reply
55. Rahul Dewan 11.14.07 / 10pm

    There is no point in talking about what I dislike about Islam.

    Let’s rather focus on what we want to create from our world, and whether the teachings of all of God’s prophets (past, present and future – Christ, Muhammad, Al-Hallaj, Lal Ded, Jalaluddin Rumi, Osho, Nanak, Kabir, Sri Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Eckhardt Tolle, Neale Donald Walsch, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev,…) fit the requirements of the times.

    What works for us as a society and race (human race), what will help us live is peace, what will help us evolve and align ourselves closer to God and finding Godhood in ourselves – these are questions which should drive our dialogue, and in that context we must examine our religions (Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, others) and see whether they or their teachings work any longer.

    In this journey we must be willing to accept what does not work for us any longer, as a race, and adopt only what works for us from across these religions, what is functional, and what leads us to Love and Humanism – which is the essential purpose of all world’s religions and the prophets/messengers/avatars/gurus.

    Game for this dialogue?

    Love,
    Rahul

    Reply
56. Mir Nazim 11.15.07 / 11am

    @Rahul

    Correctly said, Lets focus of what is the best possible thing that caters to our need and helps us in managing today’s challenges.

    So lets talk!

    Here is my opinoin:
    1) Islam is the original religion that came from Allah and same religion was brought by all the 124,000 prophets of Allah that he sent to human kind from time to time.

    2) All 124,000 prophets brought same basic message with very little differences.

    3) This religion was completed on Prophet Muhammad(may peace be upon him) and was given the name of Religion of Islam.

    4) Prophet Muhammad is the seal of prophets and no other prophet is going to come.

    Let me know your arguments against these. I will try to clarify them from Islamic standpoint. ONE BY ONE.

    Reply
57. Rahul Dewan 12.15.07 / 3pm

    Thankfully you say that this is your “opinion”. Opinions, I hope can change. If that is the case, then it is worth moving forward. Else, there is no way I see being able to break out of this chained thought process and be able to make any progress. So, let me know, if you are willing to work through another paradigm of thinking and see if it works for you.

    Here is my opinion:

    - God sends his messengers all the time, and continues to do so to this date, and for all times to come; Muhammad was another messenger, just like the messengers of today, such as H.H. Dalai Lama, Eckhardt Tolle, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Master Choa (Pranic Healing master), and many many others all over the world

    - Muhammad was not infallible. There is a case in a Hadith, where a Date plantation fails up because of his advise. Later he apologises and advises that people should listen to him in matters of spirituality and not day-to-day life things (something to this effect). So basically, he never claimed the infalibility attributed to him by people of your belief-system

    - All messages, supposedly from God, come through the personal filter of the messenger. Thus, all religions are incomplete and inaccurate – atleast as we know them today. The pupose of many messengers is to simply keep getting the same message in many different ways – all leading to the same goal.

    - There are many ways leading to the same God

    - All these paths can be right in the context of their time and place. They can be wrong, as soon as they do not work for us, in the current time and place.

    - All humans have the capacity to grow to Godhood. God is the almighty, the all in all; and hence no creation can exist which is not Her. Hence, everything is made of God, and thus God Herself. Human beings have been given the gift of Consciousness, using which, while in bodies, they have the opportunity to achieve Gods and become that.

    - Many people in the past, including in mainstream Islam have achieved this, such as Mansur Al-Hallaj, Jalluddin Rumi (although he was probably more diplomatic and twisted his words to avoid trouble; In India, including Kashmir, Sufi saints such as Sai Baba have been more bold about announcing their ONEness with the Universe/God)

    - God is nothing but creation itself. Not someone sitting somewhere and judging human beings. After all what sort of freeness does ‘free will’ have if someone is going to judge a person based on the exercise of such ‘free will’

    - You could easily replace the word God with Life or Energy

    - Religion is about functionality, and what works for Human Beings. There are no rules, no one to judge, no condemnation for eternity, no rights and wrongs in the larger eternal game. Religion is about Humanism.

    - We are all ONE. Created from the Divine Energy, the TAO. We are now endeavouring to re-member (by remembering) ourselves with the Divine.

    - Life continues after we leave this body. We simply re-manifest ourself in new forms, new bodies, based on a mesh of options and experiences we choose to experience. Life just always IS. Time, itself does not exist (it is simply another dimension and that exists in infinitum; see the String Theory). All life is eternal.

    Love,
    Rahul

    Reply
58. Ramesh Tikoo 12.29.07 / 8pm

    “Islam no where says women is responsible if she is raped. What is the actual meaning is that uncovered women are inviting rape.”

    Mir:

    Are you sure about this? May be you need some education. Please read this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/17/saudi.rape.victim/

    Note that this judgment is not coming from an illiterate peasant. It is coming from people learned in Islamic jurisprudence. Need I say anything about why you find least rape cases reported in Saudi Arab?

    Reply
59. Mir Nazim 12.30.07 / 12pm

    Mr. Tikoo

    This is reported by CNN, they have a story to tell and the judges who reported this will sure have another story to tell.

    CNN does not provide any background of the case, so how can anyone make an opinion.

    All said, if the story from CNN is truthful, the rapist are punishable by the stoning to death.

    Moreover judges, everywhere be it Saudi or elsewhere are depend on the facts presented to them.

    I ask you, how many rape victims are roaming free in India. First you should make sure that each and every rape victim is punished in your country then you should point fingers to other.

    Hope you understand my point

    Reply
60. Ramesh Tikoo 1.22.08 / 3am

    @Nazim:

    “I ask you, how many rape victims are roaming free in India.”

    So you want to put rape victims in jail on top of what happened to them?

    “First you should make sure that each and every rape victim is punished in your country then you should point fingers to other. ”

    But why should we? Punishing the victim is a barbaric act which is permitted only in sharia law. If your idea of justice is punishing the victims, then of course you are on the right track.

    Reply
61. Mir Nazim 1.22.08 / 10pm

    Thanks for pointing that out Tikoo

    Let me rephrase that:

    I ask you, how many rapists are roaming free in India. First you should make sure that each and every rapist is punished in your country then you should point fingers to other.

    But I suppose you might have gotten my point

    Reply
62. Ramesh Tikoo 1.23.08 / 11pm

    Ah! The power of Freudian slip!

    Anyway, I guess the number of rapes and rapists in India or in any other country — at least the reported numbers– will come down drastically if they adopted Sharia law a la Saudi Arab and started punishing the rape victims by 100 lashes!

    Reply
63. Mir Nazim 1.24.08 / 1am

    Mr. Tikoo

    Did I ever say that rape victims get 100 lashes. 100 lashes are for fornication not for rape.

    Please open ur eyes and read all my comments again.

    Reply
64. Ramesh Tikoo 1.25.08 / 9pm

    Gems of sharia wisdom never cease to amaze me!

    An afghan journalist sentenced to death for blasphemy under – what else? – sharia laws!

    http://www.indexoncensorship.org/?p=175

    Reply
65. Mir Nazim 1.27.08 / 11am

    Mr. Tikoo
    Follow the link to know the truth.
    http://kashmiri-nomad.blogspot.com/2008/01/death-sentence-of-afghani-student.html

    All said. I completely support putting blasphemer to death. Whether they blaspheme against Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or any other religion of the world. Their purpose is nothing but spreading mischief, chaos and hatred among people.

    Reply
66. Ramesh Tikoo 1.29.08 / 3am

    “Whether they blaspheme against Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or any other religion of the world.”

    Please speak only for yourself, sir. I do not want Hindus to be seen among such barbarians who are living in a medieval world. If someone wants to blaspheme against Hinduism, it’s fine for me.

    Reply
67. Mir Nazim 1.29.08 / 3am

    @Tikoo

    Yes. I agree. Anyone who blasphemes against Islam MUST BE PUT TO DEATH.

    “I do not want Hindus to be seen among such barbarians who are living in a medieval world.”
    Does it really matter what you want and what you don’t want. At least it does not matter to me

    “If someone wants to blaspheme against Hinduism, it’s fine for me.”
    It may be fine for you, but not for each and every Hindu in the world.

    Reply
68. Ramesh Tikoo 2.10.08 / 9pm

    @Nazim:

    “Yes. I agree. Anyone who blasphemes against Islam MUST BE PUT TO DEATH.”

    Funny your Allah is so **************************** even save his honor himself! He needs services of contract killers like you to protect his honor.

    Note: This comment has been edited for bad words [Mir Nazim]

    Reply
69. Mir Nazim 2.10.08 / 9pm

    Mr. Tikoo

    Either produce a proper argument or just get lost.

    I think you don’t know about your own religion. Why had God to come down to earth as a human, as a mere mortal to combat evil. Can’t he do it without being born as a human. Yes you guessed it correct I am talking about Krishna, Ram, etc etc.

    Ramesh, brother, argument like that will lead us no where. You will throw one stone, I will through two. This does not end. And this way we are wasting our time and energy.

    If you want to understand Islam properly, you are most welcome. But if you are here just for cheap fun. Then please don’t bother.

    Reply
70. Ramesh Tikoo 2.11.08 / 4am

    Well, you guessed it right. Neither Krishna nor Ram were God. In fact they could not have been God, because there is no such thing as God.

    As regards to Islam, I have already taken steps to understand it properly. I read the Yusuf Ali translation of Koran which is replete on every page towards hatred against non-believers, and sermons of violence, loot and plunder. Sahih Hadeeth is still worse, almost a pornography. I can give you any number of references from your unholy books. For the time being enjoy this link:

    w w w .f a i t h f r e e d o m . org

    Note: Comment edited to meet the standards for language[MirNazim]

    Reply
71. Mir Nazim 2.11.08 / 11am

    @Tikoo
    If you don’t believe Krishna and Rama to be Gods or in the Gods existence at all. Go and correct your people first. Because your mother believes so and you father and eacha nd every Hindu believes so. Correct your own people then point fingers at Islam.

    You say you have read Quran. That’s great but what is this book called Sahih Hadith? Is there any such book? I would appreciate a link to amazon or somewhere I can buy. Dude there is no such book as SAHIH HADEETH. I don’t know where you got such book from and where you found pornography in it. I challenge you to show me one single verse of the Quran which is against humanity as a while. I challenge you to show me a single hadeeth which you found. On the contra, I can cite the pornography in other major religions of the world.

    But I am not here cheap fun but serious talk.

    And yes I have seen that site. That’s a con and nothing more. No credibility.

    Why is Islam the fasted growing religion in the world with Largest growth in US, Canada and Europe, keeping in mind Islam’s image in west?

    Come back only when you have some good answers to above question?

    Reply
72. Abhilash Shastry 2.11.08 / 5pm

    Ramesh:

    I have been a silent observer of your war of words with Mir. Let me tell you that I have absolutely no sympathy for Kashmiri separatist movement, much less for Mir’s violent diatribes against blasphemers etc. However, I do not think that either of them is any good reason for your islamophobia. Islam has been in existence for 1400 years. How come it suddenly become a demon after the fall of USSR? And how come none of the leaders of India’s freedom movement saw what you have been able to see in Islam? Even at the height of communal tensions during partition, no one suggested that Islam was the root cause of all evils. So what has suddenly changed now?

    I can understand the bitterness you feel after being driven out of valley. But their is no point in searching for easy scapegoats for your conditions. Islam bashing has now become a fashion and people everywhere are falling for it as gospel truth. Again, I am not preaching you; nor saying that people who drove you out did not use the name of Islam. All I am saying is you keep an open mind. There is no religion that cannot be or has not been misused for political purposes.

    Reply
73. Mir Nazim 2.11.08 / 5pm

    Voila Brother Abhilash

    Words of Wisdom. Finally!

    Reply
74. Mir Nazim 2.11.08 / 5pm

    Abhilash your last sentence sums up the discussion superbly

    There is no religion that cannot be or has not been misused for political purposes.

    I do not think there is any more say.

    Reply
75. Rahul Dewan 4.17.08 / 6pm

    Mir,

    We lost on our conversation, which I was hoping would become a session in questioning, and hopefully lead to some results.
    I’m thinking of setting up Discussion Forum, with restricted access, while general visitors maybe allowed to comment. Otherwise discussions deteriorate very quickly.
    Not sure if there is a tool like that which exists.
    If you’re game on re-starting the discussion, and some serious questioning, then I’m on board.

    My goal ofcourse is to bring harmony by deeper understanding of religions and aiding, if I can in my own small way, to help make the transition from Religion to Spirituality.

    Thanks,
    Rahul

    Reply
76. Rahul Dewan 4.17.08 / 6pm

    We’ll probably start where we left – “our opinions”, and maybe start the journey from there on.

    BTW: I had written to you for an appointment for a meeting to discuss the same issues in person (as recommended by you), during your visit to Delhi for OSSCamp. Did not get a reply.

    Thanks,
    Rahul

    Reply
77. Mir Nazim 4.17.08 / 6pm

    @Rahul

    Hi Rahul. I understand that fully. Lets have a private email conversation which both of us can periodically publish on our blogs. Whats your opinion.

    Moreover we will also meet personally also, when I visit delhi.

    Reply
78. Rahul Dewan 9.14.08 / 11pm

    Hi Mir,

    Sure thing.

    Thanks,
    Rahul
    p.s.: sorry got back to your blog after a long time.

    Reply
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